Interview with Ben Epstein of BUCK ALAMO

In early June, we had the chance to sit down with Ben Epstein, the director, producer, and writer of Buck Alamo. A self-funded ode to Austin, Buck Alamo stars Sonny Carl Davis as the eponymous character, a dying cowboy going on a farewell tour to make amends with friends and family. 

Cutting his teeth in television and music videos, Epstein has produced and directed shows such as Undeniable with Joe Buck, The Dan Patrick Show, Kingdom, and more. In this interview, he shares the origins of his feature film, Austin’s influence on it, and his experience working with the legendary Bruce Dern.

The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Hyperreal Film Club (HFC): Was Buck Alamo a long, gestating idea for you? Or was it a spur of the moment idea you quickly latched onto?

Ben Epstein (BE): The project of Buck had actually started when we were doing a documentary with my step-uncle. It wasn't really going in the direction that we were looking for but the idea of it stuck. One of our other producers produced this movie called Krisha which was a small indie like ours and had a lot of success. We talked about the possibility of building something in this very real type of world since we already had assets for it. He fell in love with the idea of seeing some of what I had shot with the documentary and then the project started to evolve as we got deeper into it. 

Once we switched over and had Sonny Carl Davis attached, there was a lot of freedom that really went into the entire world and the mythos of the cosmic cowboy, which Sonny was cut from. One of the things that Sonny had asked me was with the idea of building his own character. So, having that partnership with this guy that had all of this history in this world allowed it to almost just birth itself, so it started from something that was as literal as it could get and then transitioned and fictionalized very quickly. 

HFC: Was there a process to find your Buck Alamo? Or did you always have Sonny in mind?

BE: Our executive producer, Mike Blizzard, suggested Sonny for a role in it before he had read this script. I was aware of [Sonny’s] work but I wasn’t super deep into his canon. This guy's got like over 80 credits to his name and he was a part of these Eagle Pennell films which basically launched indie film in Texas. His film Last Night at The Alamo, I believe, was the one that Robert Redford started Sundance around after watching it. [Sonny] was so good in those and then all these other roles in movies like Fast Times at Ridgemont High or Thelma & Louise, Lonesome Dove and you’re like, “Oh, there's Sonny! Oh, there's Sonny!” 

One of the big things was we had a character on paper [for Sonny] but after talking to him as a person, we realized there were a lot of similarities as far as the truths that were there on paper, with Sonny's truths in life, and then Sonny, the man. [We took] those truths and really dived into them. This is one of those guys who one way or another is still alive and was maybe left behind, but his stories may be even bigger than his art was in a lot of ways. So, all of it just made so much sense with casting Sonny. As soon as we started the conversations, we really knew it was him! We didn't really look elsewhere at that point.

HFC: You are marked as writer, producer, and director on this. Which hat would you say you enjoyed wearing the most when it came to this project?

BE: It's either always writing or directing. I edited this movie, too. I guess I always go by the idea of “You write a movie three times,” and luckily, I have a lot of background in post. But directing is by far the hardest of all the hats, and it takes you to the highest highs and the lowest lows, and you have to try your best to stay even keel within that; or at least save face when you're around everybody else. But when you really come down to it, it's such an opportunity to be able to direct anything. Think of being a kid and playing with your action figures or whatever, and you're doing that for real with everyone else playing too.

HFC: Before heading into production, did you come into Buck Alamo with any expectations that slowly changed as y'all were going through the filmmaking process?

BE: I have a documentary background but also like I said, I've done very abstract music videos. I'm inspired by the Coen Brothers, but I'm also inspired by David Lynch. It’s like to a certain degree, even if you think you're being totally original, you can still be totally derivative of all the things you watch and consume over your lifetime. Where Buck Alamo started, it started on script, and discovering where we were going to take it, I think it really did evolve on the scenes within that 13-day timeline.

You're watching one giant song and it’s the swan song that you're watching in this film. It's this guy's swan song, but it's told as a movie instead of listening to it. So, discovering that evolution as we were going through it, and leaning more into the abstract was a big decision that it evolved from by the time we were on day one to even day six. Because that was one of the things – coming back to directing - you're realizing like, “Alright, this is good, and this might not be good.” Like you're going to lean into what you and your collaborators and everyone thinks after a take. You’ll look around and see if everyone's smiling or not, you know? 

HFC: There's a lot of Austin in this film. It touches on the Austin music scene which as you talked about plays a big part in Austin itself. As you were working on this, did this change your perspective or appreciation for the city in any way? 

BE: I was really lucky with this, because coming in with a screenplay and basically being able to say, “I've got a screenplay, and I want to make this movie in Austin,” and then having it start to seem like it was coming together and then all fall apart, and then get connected with a couple of the people who can do things in the film community of Austin, without knowing any of them ahead of time, and how the arms kind of opened up, that was nice. Even though there weren't certain film incentives or other things that you would have in another place, the community just opened its arms and opened doors.

One of our producers, Chris Sibley, has two ranches where we shot side by side. They did this unbelievable job with building the set. That’s an example of how the community and the filmmaking community and the people helped make this thing happen. 

All these different things felt like an ode to Texas and an ode to Austin. That was the big thing that I really got out of this. 

HFC: What about you? Do you see a lot of yourself in Buck Alamo, the character? Was there any personal connection between the two of you? 

BE: Yeah, there's a lot to the idea of the artists. When I first started doing [the film] it was initially inspired by a step-uncle of mine, and the idea of the world of Buck really resonated out of him. He's in the actual movie singing during the end credits and he plays himself. We also have his music in the movie, Buck sings one of his songs in this church and he's the one who's picking the guitar behind them. That’s a major inspiration, but it was when I was talking with [my step-uncle] when we were doing this documentary, [it was one of] those things where you see different artists at these different stages, and you have these fears of what you might end up becoming in one way or another. And the idea of having this big book of music that no one has ever heard of, it really is one of the biggest things just resonating with me, as someone who sits down and writes every day. 

I can write a lot, I can write fast, but it's very, very hard to get people to even read things anymore. I've gotten writing gigs after making this feature film, because people will sit down and watch a movie, but they won't read a script anymore. You have to find those things within yourself. Whether it's the inspirations of other characters, or who you are, those are a lot of what you have to dive into if you want to have anything that feels real and connects to other people. The main character in this movie is, on purpose, this very fictionally flawed man, but that's what resonates with everyone. But also, people can see other people that they maybe had loved, and still love, and I think that's one of the big hopes with Buck Alamo. 

Those are all the inspirations. I think that really kind of went into what this character is, which was something that hopefully all artists can resonate with at some point, whether they've been through it, or whether that's a fear that they just see as they keep plugging along in any art form, but still, you just have this urge to keep creating. 

HFC: Keeping with the characters, it's an eye-catching name having Bruce Dern in this. He plays Death, apparently. What was it like to work with this illustrious, well-versed, well-traveled performer?

BE: It's totally, totally surreal! Obviously, we were lucky. This was not a lucky time to live in and it was a very sad time to live in, but we had a finished cut of the film that we could show to him and his management when we were casting this role. This was in 2020. It was the first time in Bruce Dern's life, where he wasn't working, basically. In the film, he is Death and he's the narrator of the movie from the point of view of Death. When it came down to it, he was the only person where we were like, “Why not just try to take a swing,” and it was crazy how fast it all came together. 

It's fun to have a character that is Death but also asking Death to provide a humorous levity to what's a dramatic movie as well. It's like if Death was going to look at this guy who still chain smokes cigarettes and he's cut from Willie Nelson's cloth - Willie just turned 90 - so if he's cut from that world, in that time, and he’s still chain smoking cigarettes, and he’s abused his body with drugs or whatever else, then he's escaped Death quite a few times. So, Death kind of looks at him humorously! It was a lot of fun playing with that and having his take to provide levity within that. That’s going to to be one of those moments you have to checkmark within your career, like, “Alright, that was cool!” [Laughs].

HFC: Would you say there are any lessons you can take from your time working in music videos, talk shows, reality shows, short films, documentaries etc. that proved valuable while working on Buck Alamo?

BE: Yes, everything is a learning experience leading to the next and you take nuggets. I still have so much to figure out though! The way I look at Buck now is it was just another learning experience for the next one and it's crazy to have that itch to be like, “Alright, I just want to get back in the saddle,” from the greatest learning experience of my life, which was making this movie. 

My buddy James, who I just saw at our New York screening, he was the gaffer on this movie, and he was a very early person to come on board and support the idea of trying to make it for nothing, and that was when we were trying to make it for nothing, nothing! I’ve been making movies with James back when I was 10 years old, you know? Those kinds of war movies when you go to James's lake house, and you're going to have firecrackers popping, and you're doing that kind of stuff with their family’s handycam. 

Even the things you made that you don't necessarily even remember, I'm sure there is a piece of that [that helps]. I firmly believe in putting in the work and looking at everything in that way and not phoning it in. It’s one of the issues I have where it's like you become a part of the project while you're in the life of it. Even if it's something that no one else gives a shit about [Laughs] but I think that's hopefully what each one keeps leading to from the other. Now, even looking back at all that I've learned, I'd love to go back and do a music video.

HFC: If you had to curate a playlist called “If you liked Buck Alamo, you should check out ______” and it was a playlist of books, TV shows, literal pieces of art that you think fit well with the film, what would be on there for you?

BE: Well, the easiest one is the Austin music scene of the era of where this guy is from. So, Townes Van Zandt…when I was writing it, I was listening to all of his live albums just on repeat. Willie [Nelson] is like a god to me as far as spiritually and everything else! [Laughs]. His music is only one part of it for me with Willie; it's just a little bit of everything, you know? 

It's funny because I bring up the inspirations of the Linklater movies but even some of the deeper cuts - I always said this movie was an Acid Western. Jodorowsky’s films, his surrealist movies like El Topo and The Holy Mountain. Buck only scratches the surface of that type of thing but those are the kinds of movies that really get me going. Ingmar Bergman movies too. When it comes to experimenting with the form, the French New Wave. Just doing those types of things, there's a lot of those kinds of influences that went into our very Americana movie, which was kind of funny! But it's not like saying “Go to those movies because of Buck Alamo,” it’s go see Buck Alamo because of those movies! [Laughs].

Buck is the attempt at telling a movie through a first-person perspective. Death in the movie is the omniscient character, but everything else is told from a first-person point of view and I feel like most movies are told in a third-person point of view. So, when it comes to literature, I would say that going back, there was the stuff I grew up reading, which was like Bukowski or Kerouac. A lot of those rambling character pieces where the stakes weren't very high, they're just being lived in. That's what this [movie] is just cut from. And then there’s having some type of reflection and those ideas of the antihero. Going back to what I was saying about movies, I'd go back to the primer of Paul Newman movies which were a big influence on me and wanting to tell stories on the idea of “The bastard,” being your main character. So, think Hud and Cool Hand Luke, those types of movies. Those are the weird, strange cannon that go into what I think is Buck Alamo-flavored!

HFC: If there's one piece of advice you would want to give to filmmakers when they're tackling a feature film, what would say for any filmmaker to keep in mind?

BE: Listen to your collaborators and don't give up, but also trust your vision. Those are the two sides of it. If you see that you have a vision, even if sometimes you can’t necessarily always communicate it clearly, trust it even when it seems like things are falling apart. It's just about putting one foot in front of the other a lot of the times. I do it myself, where you spend a lot of time thinking about making movies or whatever - and people do it in all industries - but thinking about doing something versus actually doing something is big too. From my experience and I think from a lot of my friends and collaborators’ experiences, it really comes down to a lot of the people who were just really willing to do it even if it means you might fail. You're still learning even if you're failing some of the time but it's always a win. So, yeah, that's the long-winded answer of “Make stuff!” [Laughs].